I'm disturbed over Panhia Vue's corpse case.

[yuknowthat]

@lilly.. its only those who are tub sab tub nyiag and theygot killed for stealing..thos e they can still perform,but brought through the window or thos qhov tsev nqa los xwb quietly without a word as the elders would say because it'll be a bad omen..

i recently learned that both the xiong and vue clans did not want to do her funeral because when someone dies so horribly like she did, it is bad omen to the people that performs the funeral.  and that in laos, people usually did not do (the usual hmong) funerals for people who were murdered or tortured to death... 

i wanted to find out more but i was too scared to ask more... 

[lilly]

@lilly.. its only those who are tub sab tub nyiag and theygot killed for stealing..thos e they can still perform,but brought through the window or thos qhov tsev nqa los xwb quietly without a word as the elders would say because it'll be a bad omen..

Oh, OK. 

anyway, i learned more that usually people that die very badly they don't do funerals for and usually they just put them under the ground and do this ritual thing: burn some seeds until the seeds turn to ash or something and tell the deceased the only way the deceased can come back to life is if those seeds can turn back to their original unburnt form.  and then i heard a contradictory story that says, for people that die badly like panhia, the relatives could have done the funeral for... except they needed to ask the muam phauj to tuaj muab nws "ntshaws"?  does anyone know about this?  i don't get this...

[Wi_sweetguy]

I will help clear some misunderstandi ng for you guys.  When a person is burnt, they need to do a cleaning ritual as part of the neej ritual to wash the burnt person so she can go on to meet her ancestors.  If they do not do the cleaning ritual then her burnt body will not be recognize by her ancestors.  How do I know?  My cousins died in a house fire and that was what they had to do.  Muam phauj is only to break curses such as yangs cannot eat the heart or father cannot sleep with DIL kinda of thing.

[lilly]

I will help clear some misunderstandi ng for you guys.  When a person is burnt, they need to do a cleaning ritual as part of the neej ritual to wash the burnt person so she can go on to meet her ancestors.  If they do not do the cleaning ritual then her burnt body will not be recognize by her ancestors.  How do I know?  My cousins died in a house fire and that was what they had to do.  Muam phauj is only to break curses such as yangs cannot eat the heart or father cannot sleep with DIL kinda of thing.

thanks. 

[Reporter]

I will help clear some misunderstandi ng for you guys.  When a person is burnt, they need to do a cleaning ritual as part of the neej ritual to wash the burnt person so she can go on to meet her ancestors.  If they do not do the cleaning ritual then her burnt body will not be recognize by her ancestors.  How do I know?  My cousins died in a house fire and that was what they had to do.  Muam phauj is only to break curses such as yangs cannot eat the heart or father cannot sleep with DIL kinda of thing.

Thanks.

And muam phauj also curses, not just de-curses. lol

[Reporter]

Oh, OK. 

anyway, i learned more that usually people that die very badly they don't do funerals for and usually they just put them under the ground and do this ritual thing: burn some seeds until the seeds turn to ash or something and tell the deceased the only way the deceased can come back to life is if those seeds can turn back to their original unburnt form.  and then i heard a contradictory story that says, for people that die badly like panhia, the relatives could have done the funeral for... except they needed to ask the muam phauj to tuaj muab nws "ntshaws"?  does anyone know about this?  i don't get this...

Tsawm.

Thanks for the info.

[Reporter]

I am saddened by this Panhia Vue incident, so saddened that I now fear such thing will happen again and I've come to realize that similar things have happened in our community before. I had been warned of this kind of thing before, but I didn't quite believe the warning. Now I know.

[Believe_N_Me]

R,

You're making too big a deal out of this. Panhia's case isn't the only one where the state took over the body. I'm very surprised that you're only hearing for the first time about Hmong corpses that nobody came to claim for a proper funeral. What it boils down to is money. If Panhia had insurance then either side could've given her a funeral. I've known many cases where the deceased (man or woman) was left to the state. Reasons: no money for funeral, and was detached from family. It seems you're concerned because Vue's death was the result of domestic violence and now you're trying to extend that blame to everything else. BTW, this kind of stuff happens all the time in mainstream. Welcome to America!

[Reporter]

R,

You're making too big a deal out of this. Panhia's case isn't the only one where the state took over the body. I'm very surprised that you're only hearing for the first time about Hmong corpses that nobody came to claim for a proper funeral. What it boils down to is money. If Panhia had insurance then either side could've given her a funeral. I've known many cases where the deceased (man or woman) was left to the state. Reasons: no money for funeral, and was detached from family. It seems you're concerned because Vue's death was the result of domestic violence and now you're trying to extend that blame to everything else. BTW, this kind of stuff happens all the time in mainstream. Welcome to America!

I never said it was the first in America. I said this is the first Hmong case that gets out there. And I know there are many similar conflicts in our community except that none so far has gotten out of hands into the mainstream.

I'm not blaming anything. I'm disturbed and so I'm venting.

[Believe_N_Me]

I never said it was the first in America. I said this is the first Hmong case that gets out there. And I know there are many similar conflicts in our community except that none so far has gotten out of hands into the mainstream.

I'm not blaming anything. I'm disturbed and so I'm venting.

So are you more disturbed that it's gone to mainstream and will make the Hmong people look bad as a whole? That is very contradicting to me when many of you have always made it clear that you want to bring awareness. Well, awareness means getting it out there into mainstream.

You also have to remember that right now there is a crusade in America to castrate men. So of course a case like this is going to make headlines.

Personally, I'm more disturbed about that case where Tou Pao Hang was murdered, decapitated, dismembered, then hidden between cushions in a basement by another Hmong man. Not to mention how his head was found in a bucket in the trunk of his assailant.

[MilesDaddy]

[/quote]
she cheated on her first marriage and the man that kill her was her second marriage. infidelity is probably the cause i assume..
[/quote]are you sure? Where did u get this info? Please don't spread rumors. Even if she did cheat its not reason enough to kill her.

[Reporter]

So are you more disturbed that it's gone to mainstream and will make the Hmong people look bad as a whole? That is very contradicting to me when many of you have always made it clear that you want to bring awareness. Well, awareness means getting it out there into mainstream.

You also have to remember that right now there is a crusade in America to castrate men. So of course a case like this is going to make headlines.

Personally, I'm more disturbed about that case where Tou Pao Hang was murdered, decapitated, dismembered, then hidden between cushions in a basement by another Hmong man. Not to mention how his head was found in a bucket in the trunk of his assailant.

A corpse left to rot doesn't disturb you? It's not so much that it gets to the mainstream; it's that it's letting it rot and getting to the mainstream on that.

[Believe_N_Me]

A corpse left to rot doesn't disturb you? It's not so much that it gets to the mainstream; it's that it's letting it rot and getting to the mainstream on that.

Many of you are totally misunderstandi ng the situation and using it to fuel your own agenda on gender inequality. In this video it is obvious that Vue's male relatives care about her. Regarding the issue that her body was in the morgue, their intentions were to seek Hmong justice for her by making the Xiong pay for her funeral. The activists trying to spin this into a gender inequality issue is only fueling things when instead, they should back Vue's relatives and place accountability on the Xiong (if in fact Vue did not sever ties with them). The reason why Hmong Women Activists don't receive a lot of support is NOT because the Hmong overlook women's rights. It's because the Hmong Women don't know how to use the Hmong culture to their advantage. They don't understand where their strength is.  It's just like American law. Those who understand it best always get their way. Those who don't are only fighting hard but not smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13RoLHCZRo

[Reporter]

I know you are guessing a lot. I've seen you guessing from the distance a lot in other posts and replies, too.

You are missing the point here. The women in WI are in support of the Vues; they have worked hard to get the Xiongs to be responsible for Panhia's funeral. But on top of that they are outraged about how 18 Clan Council handled this. And you know 18 Clan Council is male-driven. That's the inequality part comes in.

I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. It's too clear that either the Vues or the Xiongs should be responsible for her funeral. By tradition, the Xiongs would be; but if the Xiongs aren't able to handle it, then the Vues would be and maybe should.  Too clear.  But I'm disturbed that the Hmong are able to let her body rot in the morque in this manner. This is not a case where she was killed in the woods or somewhere during warfare and couldn't be found or where she's drowned and her body could not be recovered for a long time.

Many of you are totally misunderstandi ng the situation and using it to fuel your own agenda on gender inequality. In this video it is obvious that Vue's male relatives care about her. Regarding the issue that her body was in the morgue, their intentions were to seek Hmong justice for her by making the Xiong pay for her funeral. The activists trying to spin this into a gender inequality issue is only fueling things when instead, they should back Vue's relatives and place accountability on the Xiong (if in fact Vue did not sever ties with them). The reason why Hmong Women Activists don't receive a lot of support is NOT because the Hmong overlook women's rights. It's because the Hmong Women don't know how to use the Hmong culture to their advantage. They don't understand where their strength is.  It's just like American law. Those who understand it best always get their way. Those who don't are only fighting hard but not smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X13RoLHCZRo

[Believe_N_Me]

I know you are guessing a lot. I've seen you guessing from the distance a lot in other posts and replies, too.

You are missing the point here. The women in WI are in support of the Vues; they have worked hard to get the Xiongs to be responsible for Panhia's funeral. But on top of that they are outraged about how 18 Clan Council handled this. And you know 18 Clan Council is male-driven. That's the inequality part comes in.

I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. It's too clear that either the Vues or the Xiongs should be responsible for her funeral. By tradition, the Xiongs would be; but if the Xiongs aren't able to handle it, then the Vues would be and maybe should.  Too clear.  But I'm disturbed that the Hmong are able to let her body rot in the morque in this manner. This is not a case where she was killed in the woods or somewhere during warfare and couldn't be found or where she's drowned and her body could not be recovered for a long time.

Why be upset at 18 Xeem if both clans agreed to seek their mediation?  Plus, y'all getting excited over an organization that can't realistically enforce anything. For that you get a double 
Who is guessing at anything? If I was merely guessing then none of you would be so fueled up by my responses. Obviously, I've hit upon some truths.

In this great country that so many of you have passionately and more like "conveniently" brought up when it suits you, let me "conveniently" remind all of you that neither clan has to bear responsibiliti es at all if they don't want to - that is the great thing about this country. The body goes unclaimed and then is in the possession of the state. It will get what is called a "pauper's burial". Different states may have different laws and guidelines about this.