Map of the "Qhuab Ke" at Hmong funeral services.

[joot]

For those of you who practiced or know someone who practiced shamanism, have you ever seen the way to heaven on your shaman journey to the underworld?

[chidorix0x]

Tubpojntxoog,

Cov lus koj hais txog zaj "Qhuab Ke", kuv nkag siab. Txawm kuv tsis paub zaj "Qhuab Ke" zoo zoo luaj tug los kuv to taub ib yam lid koj thiab. Tsis ta lid xwb, kuv kuj tsis tau hnov los sis tau paub ib tug Txiv Qhuab Ke tug tau hais meej meej hais tias, nws yuav xa ib tug tib neeg mus rau Middle East, Siberia, or where ever ces mam mus cuag Poj cuag Yawm. (They only traverse the country, state, city/town/village that they lived in throughout and during their lifetime then climb the ladders like you said off to "heaven" -- yeah yeah, thru Ntxwv Nyoog teb too.)

Qhov confusing kuv tshaj plaws mas yog niaj hnub nod, and recently, peb ib cov laus pheej hais dab neeg tias Hmoob nyob thiab los "Muam Nkauj Liag" - Mongolia los,  This is all new to me as I have only heard of Savina's theory = Middle East, Siberia=the snow or "daus" theory, and the more academically accepted Chinese origin.

I personally believe we may have come from Siberia into China, as it is in close proximity. But the Middle East, I am not totally convinced, although there are Hmong folklore reminiscent of the Tower of Babel and the Great Flood per the holy gospel. Other than that, our language and customs are uniquely different from Middle East/Jews.

Regardless, there is no DEFINITIVE answer or solution, and to say one or the other as FACT is in fact FALSE. We, or anyone for that matter, just do not know period.

[chidorix0x]

For those of you who practiced or know someone who practiced shamanism, have you ever seen the way to heaven on your shaman journey to the underworld?

   ...   

[Tubpojntxoog]

  ...   

I can honestly tell you, as I have been practicing shamanism for almost three years now, that anyone who tell you that he/she has seen the way to heaven or has seen the dead while performinig shamanisn is simply a big fat liar. All you see is your sticks ( xyab) burning in front of you, and that's it. However, that doesn't mean that shamanism is fraud. Every time I do, I try not to shake to see what happen, but all the sudden, there is something making me shake, and I just don't know what that thing is. When I just started, I was shaking so much that I felt like something (almost like a gravitational force) was pulling my body up. At the same time, your legs, arms, hands, and throat are freezed and shaky, therefore, some shaman can't speak clearly while performing. Anyway, while a shaman performs, he/ she don't pay much attention to his/her sight. Your attention is focused on how you feel, and there is something leading your feeling to wherever it goes. This is how we shaman determine the cause of an illness, not the result of the test done in the lab. After the performance, you actually feel very good, such as happy, relaxed, and patient--not the same feeling that you have after an exercise. I still don't understand what cause this mood changes.

[singmong]

Yogli ces kuj txhais haistias koj tsispaub qhov koj hais, Koj daim thivmeemteb kuj tsistseemceeb dabtsi? ua cas koj muab cojlos tham thiab nrhiav keebkwm? Yoglawm, zaj tawkev yovtau mus kom ntontuj mam ho rov nqis qhov musrau tubtuag teb rawsnkaus li Hmoob poj hmoob yawm mus ntag lasmas yawg. Hmong lost all the documents when the Chinese empors took control and the Hmong (ntujteb taag qa ncuab lawm losmas metub awh). Kuv recommand rau koj tias, ntshe koj ho mus taug dua lwm txojkev jeeg uas tsis yog Hmoob txoj ces nyaj koj yovdim! tabsis tiamno koj tseem yog tus Hmoob ces txhobvam tias yov khiavdim Hmoob tu txhibntawg thiab zaj qhuabke kiagli losmas me kwv ntxawg. Kub twb hais rau koj lawm tias guarantee kiag no na has....

[joot]

3 years of shaman under your belt means you are a beginner.   My guess is you are probably a 20 something yr. old guy just starting to learn.  From what I have heard, some diehard shaman gets on a spiritual horse and "flys" from place to place deeper into the spiritual realm to appease the spirits of each realm.  As you go deeper, you must remember your way back, otherwise you will be spiritually lost.  You carry a sword as well to fight your way, riding on your spiritual horse.  The idea is to get to the innermost spiritual realm where the more powerful spirits causing the illness resides...some even "sees" the narrow road to heaven on their journey...hear d this from a long time shaman...BTW if you watch the American movie "INSIDIUOS", you will know what I am talking about...

[joot]

  ...   

Laugh all you want hotshot.  You think you know it all ?

[chidorix0x]

Laugh all you want hotshot.  You think you know it all ?

It's  how you do not even realize/know how    and  you make yourself  ...    ,    ... but oh wells  ...    (Ignorance is bliss  ...   )

[joot]

^^Dude, speak in complete English sentences and maybe I can debate intelligently with you.  I do not speak sign language...per haps I can recommend some ESL teacher for you ?

[chidorix0x]

joot,

Don't blame your ESL teachers yo -- for your  I mean  ...   

[singmong]

Cov phoojywg, Peb yuglos ua Hmoob, haislus Hmoob, nojmov Hmoob, thiab ua lubneej Hmoob tiagx. Rawsli kuv sojjuam nej covlus mas zoo xwsli yus tsispaub qhov yus hais thiab tsispaub qhov yus ua xwsli cov laus thaum ub thiab ntag. Kuv xavkom peb txhobdab peb tuskheej. (Don't trick your self, but treat your self.)

Kuv qhia rau nej paubtias, Hmoob yog ibpab tibneeg uas jeeg jujplig xws li haistias, nrabneej nrabdab (nyob ces ciajneeg tuag ces ciajdab) Hmoob laus haistias lawv los Suavteb los tsuasyog hais qhov yoojyim mloogxwb tsistau tham tasnrho zaj dabneeg vim nyias muaj nyias ntu pib thaum chivkeeb lostxog rau niajhnub nimno. Lwm hnub peb tej menyuam yov tsis haistxog koj peb cov dabneeg lawm. Lawv tsuas piav haistias hnov tejlaus haistias Hmoob tuaj Blogteb thiab Thaibteb tuaj no xwb.

Nej twb tsistau ua servay Hmong cov anthropologist, nej tsuas nyeem other scholars cov theories xwb mas nej tsisyog Hmoob lawm.

[joot]

joot,

Don't blame your ESL teachers yo -- for your  I mean  ...   

^^Dude, I don't know what mental state you are in but I must say I have never ran into anyone online as idiotic as you.  You deserve that name and title.  If there was a trophy, I would give you that.....

Seems learning how to debate on the subject and not the person is not in your vocabulary...

[chidorix0x]

Cov phoojywg, Peb yuglos ua Hmoob, haislus Hmoob, nojmov Hmoob, thiab ua lubneej Hmoob tiagx. Rawsli kuv sojjuam nej covlus mas zoo xwsli yus tsispaub qhov yus hais thiab tsispaub qhov yus ua xwsli cov laus thaum ub thiab ntag. Kuv xavkom peb txhobdab peb tuskheej. (Don't trick your self, but treat your self.)

Kuv qhia rau nej paubtias, Hmoob yog ibpab tibneeg uas jeeg jujplig xws li haistias, nrabneej nrabdab (nyob ces ciajneeg tuag ces ciajdab) Hmoob laus haistias lawv los Suavteb los tsuasyog hais qhov yoojyim mloogxwb tsistau tham tasnrho zaj dabneeg vim nyias muaj nyias ntu pib thaum chivkeeb lostxog rau niajhnub nimno. Lwm hnub peb tej menyuam yov tsis haistxog koj peb cov dabneeg lawm. Lawv tsuas piav haistias hnov tejlaus haistias Hmoob tuaj Blogteb thiab Thaibteb tuaj no xwb.

Nej twb tsistau ua servay Hmong cov anthropologist, nej tsuas nyeem other scholars cov theories xwb mas nej tsisyog Hmoob lawm.

Kuv tsis yog yuav los thuam los sis los nrog koj sib cav, tiam sid raws lid koj cov lus kuv "BOLD" ntawd - saum toj nod. Yog koj ntseeg lid koj cov lus hais, vim lid cas koj ho sau thiab hais lus Hmoob zoo lid nod thiab: (Examp: koj hais thiab sau Ntawv Hmoob zoo lid nod:  jujplig, ciajdab, Blogteb, haistxog, niajhnub nimno) Cov lus nod txais tau hais tias yog LUS Hmoob lawm no lod? Cas kuv tsis tau pom thiab paub dua lid? (Truth is, I know how it works or why you wrote that way. My point is -- is that Hmong as it was initially derived, taught, and learned since its inception?)

The rest, kuv tsis xav "debate" vim nyias muaj nyias qhov ntseeg, kawm, and personal opinion. Also, peb cov Hmoob anthropologist s/scholars are also only nyeem from other scholars exclusively or mainly and mostly. Lawd yeej tsis paub ib yam lid koj los sis kuv -- qhov tseeb versus qhov cuam, tsuas surmise via other scholars too.

And "joot", I'll give you my second, hour, or time of the day when you are semi-worthwhile okay? Till then,    ...   

[singmong]

You have to be cool down, you know if your name devil (pojntxoog) this is trick or treat? We are in a ring of debating or spiritual fight. I know how weak you are that's while you got rob from ntxwjnyoos and never win, even all the Hmong too. The way you say that because you don't know the Hmong philosopher who now know exxactly who is the Ntxwjnyoos is and his servants devil are?

Brother I tell you that only the young man don't know the Hmong history because they have been brain washed and only copy others, this is said by Professor Wu rhong chen of the Hmong scholar in China.

[singmong]

Kuv ntseeg tias kuv haislus Hmoob zoo tshaj koj, nej txhuatus, tiamsis peb tseem yuav kho covntawv Hmoob no kom meej thiab sai tshaj qhovqub. Kuv xavtias ib cov tub tuaj kawmntawv li koj ,nej nkagsiab kuv covntawv thiab cov lus zoo no?

Tsisyog khav tabsis saibmus lawm yavtomntej.