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Author Topic: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?  (Read 11237 times)

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SVanTha

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Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« on: July 14, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »
If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china.  The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.

I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination.  However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors.  Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing.  What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.

I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.

Is it even possible?  Is it too late?  Is it too soon?  How is it achieved?  Where is it achieved?



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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 10:03:58 AM »
The biggest obstacle we Hmong face is the fact that there exists an overwhelming large pool of people (mainly anybody who has been acculturated into American culture) who will never see a necessity for a Hmong leader. It doesn't make sense to them to establish a new set of standards to follow since mainstream already provides an effective one - according to them since that is all they know and have been taught. A leader to them is someone of the same mindset. But then that is just counterproduct ive since one could just be mainstream and follow mainstream leaders/policies, etc.

In a nutshell, the Hmong do not lack leaders, the Hmong lack followers.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 12:36:08 PM »
Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.



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hmongperson

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 02:33:04 PM »
We have a sense of self-determination, we just don't have a collective sense of self-determination



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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 03:50:11 PM »
Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.

That isn't true at all. I don't know any Hmong person who doesn't want to always be doing better. The problem is that they're not given the proper tools (in ways that they can understand) to do better. The younger generation doesn't quite understand this. They complain that there is lack of leadership but they won't admit that they never intend to follow anyways.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »
That isn't true at all. I don't know any Hmong person who doesn't want to always be doing better. The problem is that they're not given the proper tools (in ways that they can understand) to do better. The younger generation doesn't quite understand this. They complain that there is lack of leadership but they won't admit that they never intend to follow anyways.

Like I said, hmong fear change.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 06:08:19 PM by night912 »

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SVanTha

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 06:48:53 PM »
The key is, the path to self-determination is no longer simply based on firepower.  That's the way the OGs think and that's the surest way to failure cause we'll immediately lose the support of the americans.

The other thing is, the hmongs in america don't have to be united; they just have to be concerned, and hmong are universally concerned about self-determination.  What they provide is money, expertise and american connections.  All you need for $1,000,000 USD, is 10,000 'concerned' hmong individuals who will give $100.  That translates to $31,122,000 Thai Baht and even more Lao money.  For reference, you can build a nice house in thailand for $1,000,000 baht or $32,000 USD.

Guys, it's all been done already by the chinese in thailand, specifically bangkok.  15% are pure chinese and up to 50% are mixed chinese.  They came in and dominated the economy because of their chinese connections all throughout SEAsia back to china.  Many, maybe even most, of the previous and current prime ministers are chinese descended.  Even the royal family has chinese blood.

If we pour money from america into a region, the hmong will come.  If we use our connections, they will come from vietnam and china as well cause; unfortunately, many of them live in poverty too.  If we provide them with our expertise, they will flourish.

p.s. - Laos is a dead end and will always be.  Thailand is already dominated by the chinese.  Think outside the box.



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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 10:24:16 PM »
Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.

Explain further what you mean by "Hmong fear change" and give examples of them.



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Great Sage

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 12:09:39 AM »
Like I said, hmong fear change.

I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.

Here's what I mean:

1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.

2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.

3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.

4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.

WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!



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Offline Reporter

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 03:24:12 AM »
Self-determination is a personal thing. But independence or autonomy of a people--that's a different thing, right?



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 08:53:44 AM »
I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.

Here's what I mean:

1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.

2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.

3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.

4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.

WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!

Those are examples of why hmong fear change. That is why when there is a change in the place they are at, they run away.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 09:06:11 AM »
Explain further what you mean by "Hmong fear change" and give examples of them.

Examples:
1. Animal slaughtering. The point of a slaughter house is so the animal is butcher for you. But hmong still wants to do it the hard old way.

2. Many hmong are now converting to Christianity. People fear that change so they look down on those Christians.

3. The way of teaching the young must change so they are willing to learn. But the older generation still teaches the same way.

There is more.



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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 10:36:59 AM »
Examples:
1. Animal slaughtering. The point of a slaughter house is so the animal is butcher for you. But hmong still wants to do it the hard old way.

2. Many hmong are now converting to Christianity. People fear that change so they look down on those Christians.

3. The way of teaching the young must change so they are willing to learn. But the older generation still teaches the same way.

There is more.

1) If Hmong want to slaughter animals the "old way" in their backyard, farm, or house then that's prerogative. If they have the time for that, leave them be. It's the process that keeps their tradition alive. And this defines them. It's not about economics. If it's about economics then yes you would have a point.

2) Why would you want Hmong to convert into Christianity for? That's stupid on their part and you should not be supporting them on this. Apparently you took nothing from our earlier conversation then... If Hmong want to change and search for higher education, business, technology, etc, then sure. But to pick up somebody else' religion, which is no better or truer than yours, so your ppl can be assimilated makes no sense. Change for the better, not for the worst!

3) I don't see what you are seeing at all here unless you give a specific example.

Yes, list more examples, but be precise.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:03:00 AM by YeejKoob13 »

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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 11:59:30 AM »
1) If Hmong want to slaughter animals the "old way" in their backyard, farm, or house then that's prerogative. If they have the time for that, leave them be. It's the process that keeps their tradition alive. And this defines them. It's not about economics. If it's about economics then yes you would have a point.

2) Why would you want Hmong to convert into Christianity for? That's stupid on their part and you should not be supporting them on this. Apparently you took nothing from our earlier conversation then... If Hmong want to change and search for higher education, business, technology, etc, then sure. But to pick up somebody else' religion, which is no better or truer than yours, so your ppl can be assimilated makes no sense. Change for the better, not for the worst!

3) I don't see what you are seeing at all here unless you give a specific example.

Yes, list more examples, but be precise.

1. If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder? Where dou you put the things you don't use?

2. Fear in change. Instead trying to know why hmong is converting, they just hate. I won't get into debating which religion is right or better but ill ask you this question. Why is your username YeejKoob?

3. Open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way and you will see. It doesn't matter how many examples I give, you won't see it.




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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 12:40:52 PM »
I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.

Here's what I mean:

1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.

2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.

3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.

4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.

WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!

Heavily agree!  O0 The Hmong do not fear change at all. Finally in America we have elders and younger folks who are fighting harder than ever to be who they are. America has given us that opportunity. They just need the tools, resources, and proper channels to get a momentum going. However, they are interrupted by those who do want to change and assimilate. This is why I stated that it's not a lack of leadership but a lack of followers. There's no way a leader can even enforce his/her plans because s/he doesn't have the actual authority. It has to be the interest of each individual to uphold their desire to be Hmong.   



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