Manufacturing jobs, will they come back?

[FetishDream]

Uhhh, because they spent $775 million dollar on Kiva and expect some kind of return on their investment?  If what you said was true, then Amazon is the one that got punked by Kiva.

But since you can't refute it, you're just deflecting.

Understand what is the claim here.  With amazon, they introduced their kiva system after buying kiva.  While the department that once does the job of kiva no longer exist, those employees get bounced around to other departments.  No jobs were lost.

Kiva is just a transportation tool that amazon uses.  Kiva has no hands so it can not pick and stow and pack and all that good stuff.  Human hands are still needed to do the job at any amazon's fulfillment center. 

The efficiency comes in the form of faster service and if the service is faster, so is needed for workers to manifest these orders.  So why is amazon hiring?  If anything, they should be laying people off and buy more kiva right?   

[Evil_K_Man]

Understand what is the claim here.  With amazon, they introduced their kiva system after buying kiva.  While the department that once does the job of kiva no longer exist, those employees get bounced around to other departments.  No jobs were lost.

Kiva is just a transportation tool that amazon uses.  Kiva has no hands so it can not pick and stow and pack and all that good stuff.  Human hands are still needed to do the job at any amazon's fulfillment center. 

The efficiency comes in the form of faster service and if the service is faster, so is needed for workers to manifest these orders.  So why is amazon hiring?  If anything, they should be laying people off and buy more kiva right?   

You realize that they were growing their infrastructure right?  Net sales went from $61 billion in 2012 to almost $107 billion in 2015.  You think they could of done that without growing infrastructure and hiring for new warehouses and investing in technology like Kiva?

Oh I liked how you agreed that jobs were eliminated and then made the excuse that those people were repurposed...n ice save...NOT!!!

[FetishDream]

More on amazon with fluff news


Now CEO Bezos has said the number will be closer to 10,000 by the end of this year. Amazon claims that current employees won’t be sacked because of the additional 9,000 robots, but obviously the robots are doing a lot of work that would otherwise have required additional human employees.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/183254-amazon-deploys-10000-robot-workers-a-year-after-obamas-famous-amazon-jobs-speech


"We continue to add employees, and no employee has been negatively impacted by Kiva coming on board," said Dave Clark, Amazon's senior vice president of worldwide operations and customer service. He noted that Amazon hired 80,000 seasonal workers for the holidays, up 14% from a year earlier.
He said increased automation hasn't led to reduced staffing levels at newer warehouses because the company continues to grow rapidly, which has led to more hiring.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-amazon-robots-20141202-story.html

Amazon uses robots extensively at its fulfillment centers, but picking pieces from shelves is a function still reserved for human workers, in part because robots have trouble grasping and manipulating objects of unpredictable size.
Amazon spokesperson in a statement. “There has been no job loss associated with the use of robotics in our buildings and in fact due to increased efficiencies, some of our buildings utilizing robotics have the highest headcounts in our network.”
http://www.geekwire.com/2015/rise-of-the-robots-at-amazon-john-markoffs-new-book-foresees-fully-automated-fulfillment-centers/

[FetishDream]

You realize that they were growing their infrastructure right?  Net sales went from $61 billion in 2012 to almost $107 billion in 2015.  You think they could of done that without growing infrastructure and hiring for new warehouses and investing in technology like Kiva?

Oh I liked how you agreed that jobs were eliminated and then made the excuse that those people were repurposed...n ice save...NOT!!!

what are you talking about job lost?  Have you read the fluff news lately?   

I already told you. I used to work there so there goes my credibility for my talk.  Can't fake the funk here buddy.   

[Evil_K_Man]

Do you even read these articles?

Article 1. Robots doing work otherwise would have required humans.

Article 2. Layoffs have not happen because of growth. And for the 100th time. Seasonal workers are part time temp workers.

Article 3. They say they aren't losing jobs but if you read the article they are looking at technology that can pick and pack.

The one thing they won't openly admit is that they are replacing humans were they can. If it weren't for their growth masking their need for more labor, it would be easy to see it.

Just because you work in their warehouses doesn't mean you know what they are planning. So NO you never had any credibility in the first place.

[Evil_K_Man]

what are you talking about job lost?  Have you read the fluff news lately?   

You just said earlier the department that once did what Kiva did was gone. And that the workers were "repurposed." The material point was that Kiva replaced their old jobs. What if they couldn't be repurposed. Jesus stop making this so easy for me.

[FetishDream]

Do you even read these articles?

Article 1. Robots doing work otherwise would have required humans.

Article 2. Layoffs have not happen because of growth. And for the 100th time. Seasonal workers are part time temp workers.

Article 3. They say they aren't losing jobs but if you read the article they are looking at technology that can pick and pack.

The one thing they won't openly admit is that they are replacing humans were they can. If it weren't for their growth masking their need for more labor, it would be easy to see it.

Just because you work in their warehouses doesn't mean you know what they are planning. So NO you never had any credibility in the first place.

1. Robots were introduced but fluff news said no jobs were lost.  How come?  You don't work there so tell me again, how come?

2. Growth and yet, more robots were needed so where is the layoff of the people who kiva took the jobs from?  You don't work there so tell us again, how come?  There were part timer or seasonal worker before kiva.  It is called seasonal worker for a reason and they still do the job that kiva brings to them.  How come kiva don't finish them all and calling it a flawless victory?  Seasonal worker is still a worker.  IT is a job so no job lost there. 

3.  To stay competitive, technology is needed.  The article also showed that robots also made errors thus why they are not having kiva to do everything and lay everyone off. 

So where is the lost of job at amazon?  If anything, jobs functioning also got an upgrade.  Someone still needs to babysit them kiva.   

[FetishDream]

You just said earlier the department that once did what Kiva did was gone. And that the workers were "repurposed." The material point was that Kiva replaced their old jobs. What if they couldn't be repurposed. Jesus stop making this so easy for me.

Yes the old way or job description of the old way is gone but with kiva, it also creates more jobs on the back end.  So where is the lost of jobs? 

 

[FetishDream]

Before kiva, there were less work so less workers in the back end was needed.  This also includes the icqa department.  These are the people who does inventory control / quality assurance type of work.

With kiva means more work on the back end thus needs more icqa folks.  You know how many icqa employees are there today?  Same amount as the picker and stow department.  Why?  Well with an increase in orders, someone has to count and make sure the orders are correct. 

So with the introduction of robots like kiva also yields in the massive hiring of a department that once was a few.   

[YAX]

looks like you guys went off topic here.  The original topic was whether Trump can bring back Manufacturing jobs from oversea.  Not about whether they should he replaced by automation.  lol.

But since we are off topic, I'd say, uf a company can replace workers with machines and reduce as well as become more efficient, then its stupid for said company to not go that route.   Why would any company want to take a less effective solution and risk getting slaughtered by their competitors?

[Evil_K_Man]

Yes we sort of did, however i did elude a bit to automation in my original comment.  Outsourcing overseas is slowly becoming an antiquated practice now that technology has caught up to us.  Even without technology, unless we do something big like "destabilize governments" per someone here, we aren't going to see them come back.  Even then, they'll just probably go to other developing nations.

I was trying to school house rock it for Fetish, but after he contradicted himself, there was no point in continuing.  I know we focused a lot on Amazon, but you just need to look at any other industries that hasn't grown like auto and you can see what I mean.

I've worked at two companies that produce locally and own warehouse infrastructure, and Payroll eats up so much of the operational budget.  So when we (and Amazon) say that we are making operational efficiencies to the tune of millions (in the case of Amazon...billi ons) of dollars, it means we are cutting people or making it so that less human capital is required both for the present and future.  The two companies I worked at had growth issues, so its more apparent when automation takes effect.

However I don't need to preach to you, since you've been out there enough to understand.  Its typically the unskilled and uneducated people who don't see it, but hey, that's why Trump is president right?

[Blongforever]

So today I got into a discussion with my coworker around mfg jobs. She is very passionate about it.  She believes the US should bring them back and thinks or at least wants Trump to do it.  I'm not sure if she's a Trump supporter, but she sounds like one.  Anyways I was telling her that economically its not viable for most company, especially those that manufacture high margin products/goods to bring manufacturing back to the US.  I also told her the ones that did come back were automated away because it was cheaper than China, but she thinks Trump can do it. Whether it be through tariffs/taxes, stern harsh mean words, or punishing companies that produce outside the US, it will be done.  Also because China is corrupt and steals from us and manipulates its currency and world commodities, we should simply cut them off because that's the right and moral thing to do.

At the end I couldn't convince her to at least look at it objectively from an economic standpoint.  She blindly believes it must be done even if it hurts US interest.  I did remind her that China has a population of about 1.4 billion and a growing middle class that is marching towards consumerism that most US companies would love to tap into, but she was like NO, we need to cut the head off.

So I gave up.

I smell Corporate Welfare in the horizon.


An average hourly wage of $34/hour in the US vs. $6/hr in Mexico with no other crazy benefits how would MFJ remain in the use?  It would not be competitive enough to stay in business.  Unless uncle same starts revamping major Corporate Welfare programs again.  Isn't that defeating the purpose?

Trump has been begging company in Ohio to stay in the US and not to move down to Mexico but dude will only end up driving that company into the ground.

[Evil_K_Man]

Yeah, hes going to have to give out a lot of tax incentives to companies...an d even then there are loop holes to get around it.

Most companies need only point out what Trump does with his business if he tries to keep them in the US.

[Solemn Wind]

So today I got into a discussion with my coworker around mfg jobs. She is very passionate about it.  She believes the US should bring them back and thinks or at least wants Trump to do it.  I'm not sure if she's a Trump supporter, but she sounds like one.  Anyways I was telling her that economically its not viable for most company, especially those that manufacture high margin products/goods to bring manufacturing back to the US.  I also told her the ones that did come back were automated away because it was cheaper than China, but she thinks Trump can do it. Whether it be through tariffs/taxes, stern harsh mean words, or punishing companies that produce outside the US, it will be done.  Also because China is corrupt and steals from us and manipulates its currency and world commodities, we should simply cut them off because that's the right and moral thing to do.

At the end I couldn't convince her to at least look at it objectively from an economic standpoint.  She blindly believes it must be done even if it hurts US interest.  I did remind her that China has a population of about 1.4 billion and a growing middle class that is marching towards consumerism that most US companies would love to tap into, but she was like NO, we need to cut the head off.

So I gave up.

Did you tell her or does she even know that it's people like Donald Trump who moved manufacturing jobs from the United States to China in the first place?

And if she does know how what is her response to that?

[Evil_K_Man]

Did you tell her or does she even know that it's people like Donald Trump who moved manufacturing jobs from the United States to China in the first place?

And if she does know how what is her response to that?

She doesn't say much, just that its in the past and we need to look to the future.  Its the same with any other Trump supporter, you question them enough and they just go into their mental safe zone.